Explaining feminism in real life, part 1.

Over the past few years I have become the resident, go-to feminist when anyone has questions re: feminism. This is largely because I wear my feminist banner loud and proud, and a lot of feminists that I know are scared to for fear of the misperceptions or repercussions. I totally get it. I recently got into a debate with a male friend of mine about feminism and I would say that the conversation we had is fairly exemplary of most conversations that I have about feminism.

 For the sake of humanity, I have decided to post our conversation here (removing his name obviously). Are my answers perfect? No, but they are a starting point. I'd also like to clarify that I see this man as a good person whose beliefs are reflective of the culture we live in. I do not seem him as an antagonist. And I am incredibly proud of him for reaching out and being open to this conversation.

That being said, here we go:

HIS EMAIL
Hope you are well.  I've thought a lot about think you and others said in response to my "man" words post on facebook.  I've also done a lot of reading / searching various terms online trying to better understand some of these social issues.
 
I don't think I really understand any of this better than before and have even more questions.  Maybe the best place to start is the definition of the term feminism.  Wikipedia has this; "a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal,and social rights for women".  Is this a good definition of feminism? It sounds great to me.  I'm all for it.
BTW, you are definitely correct, I rarely post anything political on Facebook.  The last time was before we knew each other and was a subtle reference to something silly Obama said.  I wondered what kind of tool is used to calibrate words :P  In this case, these terms seemed new to me and I just happened to learn about all of them over the last few months and felt like men were being attacked unjustly because in my experience I've seen women do all these things too. Hence the hashtag misandry.  BTW, I learned a new "man" word. Manslamming.  Apparently men in new york don't like to move out of the way for women and will run into them.
 
After all the reading I've done I'm left with a feeling that even though a lot of men would agree with the definition of feminism above, the current implementation of feminism does not make them want to advocate for it.  I've come across feminists saying some pretty outrageous things which led me to this conclusion.  I think these "man" words I think are one example of that.  By including all men in these terms to explain a social phenomenon of rude behavior it does not make men want to get behind it. So I am left wondering, who are the thought leaders for the modern feminist movement.  Who should I pay attention to and who should I ignore?
 
I'm also left wondering for some of these issues for example, wage gap, women vs men ceo's, heads of state, interrupting, etc...  How much of these are due to sexism vs innate differences in males vs females.  For example, this person has a theory that manterrupting is not so much a gender issue but due to differences in personality type.manterrupting
Then I found this article that suggests women tend to not take credit for their good work.the atlantic
 
Then, coincidentally one of my climbing lady friends on facebook posted a link to this article that suggests women downplay their abilities when it comes to sports: sports
So I'm left wondering is it men that need to change their behavior or women?
XXX said that it should be clear why a man interrupting a woman is a greater concern than a man interrupting a man or woman interrupting a man.  Well, to me it's not.  If women are really striving for equality then it should just be seen as interrupting.
 
Where does chivalry fit in with all this?  I've come across some poststhat suggest being chivalrous is also being sexist.  So if a mandoesn't interrupt a woman when he would interrupt a man in the same situation is he being sexist?
 
Finally, do feminists get manicures? :) [CR commentary: clearly meant as a joke]
 
Well, I guess that's good for now.  There are lots of other thoughts floating through my mind but hopefully you receive this in the spirit I intended which is not to attack or criticize you but to have a discussion and help get me pointed in the right direction.
MY RESPONSE
I’d say the definition of feminism that you proposed is pretty good. Even more simplistically, the definition is the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. Now to point out one more thing, misandry is defined as the hatred of men. So when you use that word, use it carefully and understand what you are saying.


There are extremists in every thing that involves passion. If you ruled out all Christians or muslims or democrats or republicans because of the extremists who suggest they represent all things, then you’d miss out on the bulk of good people and good things in the world. Hitler doesn’t represent all Germans, the KKK doesn’t represent all Christians, and the Tea Party doesn’t represent all Republicans. In fact, in each case, those are incredibly small sub-sects that just happen to be insanely outspoken. So should you judge all feminism by the few feminists who do “man hate”, probably not.
Feminists are genuinely concerned about the equality (or lack there of) of the genders (keep in mind this is not binary: male and female, they also consider the LGBTQ population). And Feminism is also concerned about the intersection of race, gender, and economic status. It is equally as concerned about the way that we raise men as it is about the way we raise woman. Feminism recognizes that we, as a culture, have created the constructs of gender. What is masculine and what is feminine is almost entirely socialized. Rape is predominantly committed by men, but rape is a symptom of a cultural disease. We, as a society, have created rapists and created a culture where rape is tolerated.


When you say “who should I pay attention to and who should I ignore” I don’t have an answer for you, because it isn’t entirely a fair question. My suggestion would be listen to women and their experiences. I think Tina Fey says a lot of great things about feminism and equality but it’s not like she’s the leader of the modern wave of feminism. Emma Watson, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, etc etc etc are all great examples of feminists. There are a million women and men that I respect and look up to for their insights and their action. But I wouldn’t say that modern feminism has a single prominent leader like in decades past. If you want to learn a lot about feminism, read Maya Angelou’s work. I will say this much, take everything you hear Sheryl Sandberg say with a big ass grain of salt, because she definitely approaches a lot of what she says from a position of power and affluence, and so many of her “solutions” are bordering on bullshit.
WRT manterrupting: yes, all genders interrupt individuals. No behavior is entirely exclusive to a single gender and no one is saying it is. What manterrupting seeks to clarify, is the lasting and negative impacts that the systematic interrupting of woman has.
First off, that guy sounded like a douche in his article. He also wasn’t understanding that personality while partly biological, is also socialized. So to say that these personalities are inherent, is inaccurate. I am not just speaking to this as a feminist, I am speaking to this as a psychology student.
  • Women are taught to be less outspoken and they are also taught to emphathize more with others, such that their needs often come second. This spills into the workplace.
  • When women do interrupt, they face greater consequences for it.
  • I personally have sat in a room where filled with men, where the two coordinators in the room (including myself)  were the only females, and every single time the other coordinator started to speak someone interrupted her. Every. Single. Time. This is bullshit. It not only impacts the way she subconsciously sees herself but it also impacts the way everyone else in the room subconsciously sees her. It diminishes her credibility and authority.
  • To say that women just need to change their behavior is also a crock of shit. I am an outspoken women, but I have on many occasions been chastised for speaking up. In fact I have actually had reduced scores on my yearly performance reviews for this. Ryan is basically the male equivalent of me, in terms of the way we communicate, yet he has never been put in check for the way he talks and I have on MANY occasions.
  • I could extend this to other topics such as rape. It’s not as simple as to say, men just need to stop raping woman. Yes, rapists are predominantly male, and yes they need to stop raping people. But we as a culture need to look at how we are raising men to become rapists. We need to look at how 30% of male students will admit to having sexual assaulted someone if you describe it rather than actually saying the word “rape.” because many of these men don’t identify as rapists and don’t see what they did as wrong and we, in a lot of ways, are supporting that notion by the way we talk about sex and consent. So how can we, as a community, change our ideals and the standards with which we hold our men to? And how do we empower woman at the same time?

Also, I found this article that agrees with both you and me and reconciles the notion of power. Keep in mind, I think that mansplaining and manterrupting are catchy and help initiate a much needed conversation, but I do recognize they can be offputting. That being said, I don't think they "degrade an entire class of people" as you said, I think they are just fucking catty. Also, people constantly use the word "feminist" with me as some type of insult which is equally, if not more offensive.

“XXX  said that it should be clear why a man interrupting a woman is a greater concern than a man interrupting a man or woman interrupting a man.  Well, to me it's not.  If women are really striving for equality then it should just be seen as interrupting.”
  • I think it is easy for you to say this because you are man.
  • To say we should just see this as interrupting and not make any differentiation is to be incredibly naive about the impacts that the behavior has on women in the workplace. It diminishes their credibility in ways that it does not diminish a man's.
  • I really think that if you were invited to the all women’s meetings we used to have at our company, and you sat in that room, and you heard every single woman regardless of age, position, or seniority describe their experiences, you would not be so blind about this topic.

“So if a man doesn't interrupt a woman when he would interrupt a man in the same situation is he being sexist?”
  • First off, men/women/whatever shouldn’t interrupt period. It is rude and it is a symptom of someone believing they and their opinions hold more value. It’s dismissive. And they should just stop that.
  • Sexism is: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. This is much deeper than whether you direct catty behavior towards all genders. It is about the lasting impact that prejudice and discrimination, whether subconscious or conscious, has. In our society, men are in a position of power and superiority. Sexism is institutionalized in a way that marginalizes women and holds them back. This also has lasting, negative impacts on men.
  • [similarly, yes people of color can say racist things, but racism is:the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. So whites, considered superior in our culture, are in the position of power. Attacking racism is attacking the institutionalized injustice that marginalizes and oppresses people of color]
So yes, women need to embrace their own voice but our society needs to create a culture and environment where that voice is respected and appreciated. Where women are not inherently seen as inferior or as bitchy when they do assert themselves. And men need to be responsible for their interactions and their impact on others. The foundation of feminism, in my opinion, is empathy.


WRT chivalry:
  • Chivalry is based on the values of “courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.”
  • Now the first four traits, I value and respect greatly. The fifth is where I’d say people have qualms. If you are doing something because you want to show someone respect and courtesy, by all means go for it. I love when people, male or female, open a door for me if they get there first because it shows thoughtfulness and consideration. But if you are doing something because you see a woman, whether consciously or subconsciously, as inferior or weak or dainty then no, it’s not really cool. Also, if you are offended by someone not wanting that behavior, then likely your intentions were not pure to begin with. I could turn your same logic presented early, against you. If you wouldn’t do it for a man, or you wouldn’t be bothered by a man not appreciating the gesture, then you should apply the same to women.
  • I also think that many men feel threatened if a woman tries to reciprocate the behavior. Constantly paying for meals and dates, etc can put people on unequal footing within a relationship and people have to navigate what works best and feels most comfortable for them. If a woman's behavior threatens your "manhood" (this is what I hear a lot from people), then you should problem redefine your manhood. It sounds fragile and egocentric. (keep in mind, when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I mean the broader you.)

Feminism seeks to provide options to both men, women, and everything in between. Feminism wants having a man be able to decide whether he wants to work or stay at home with his child to be as viable of an option as for women. It seeks to eradictate the restrictions we have created as a society.


“By including all men in these terms to explain a social phenomenon of rude behavior it does not make men want to get behind it.”
  • This is a cop out. A well worn out cop out. There are plenty of men who are not threatened by feminism and the terms used to explain patterns of behavior (see: Aziz Ansari, Joseph Gordon Levitt, John Legend, Russell Brand, Mark Ruffalo, etc etc). I would argue that the reason why a lot of men don’t get behind feminism is because they don’t like the notion that in some small (or big way) they have earned what they have, possibly at the expense of someone else. It is the same reason why white people have a very difficult time backing people of color. They don’t like the notion that they have received benefits in life that have contributed to their success, solely based on the color of their skin.
  • If you do not like the words being used, join the cause and start opening the conversation. The words themselves hold less value than the behaviors they are describing.


Yes some feminists get manicures and wear makeup and wear dresses and do all kinds of things. And it doesn’t make them any less of a feminist.

There is so much more I could say on this topic. Here are some more resources if you want to dig deeper:
It is really important to remember that all feminists believe in the social, economic, and political equality of the genders, but that does not mean they agree on how to get there (sadly they are no different than any other political, social, or religious group in that respect).

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