Explaining feminism in real life, part 2.

Round 2 of my open and honest conversation about feminism with a close male friend of mine. Keep in mind these responses are in real time so we both misread each others statements throughout this process. It happens. Conversations are gritty sometimes. Here we go:



HIS FOLLOW UP
Thanks. The article you linked perfectly describes the issue I have with those words.  BTW, I think you might have missed the joke I was trying to make about feminists getting manicures :P

Where does this statistic come from? 30% of male students will admit to having sexual assaulted someone if you describe it rather than actually saying the word “rape.”  30% seems impossibly high to me.

You'll probably roll your eyes at this but why not rebrand feminism and rename it something else?  As you said, feminism is more than just about gender and also brings up many other social justice issues.

I've also read a lot about rape and rape culture.  I didn't really want to talk about this since it's a very sensitive subject but you mentioned it and besides, it's bound to come up when discussing feminism so might as well not avoid it :)  Several articles I read suggest that all men are rapists and that women should treat men they don't know as potential rapists.  Which doesn't make sense to me since women are far more likely to be raped by someone they know than a stranger.  A statistic I found says that 1 in 5 to 1 in 4 women will be raped by the time they graduate college.  But this report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics gives a much lower rate of 7.6 per 1000 (1 in 131).  Obviously still too high but not the major epidemic feminists make it out to be.  Rape culture seems to be more about spreading fear and misinformation rather than reducing sexual assault.  

Based on the reading I've done over the past week or so I still feel like feminism is a movement most men wouldn't want to actively support.  Partly because of the terms and language used but also because issues of patriarchy (I learned a new word) are usually discussed in terms of men oppressing women and women specific issues.  I have read some articles that discusses ways that patriarchy oppresses men but they are much rarer.  

I guess that's it for now.  Hopefully I didn't make you too angry.

MY FOLLOW UP

What you are essentially saying when you ask feminism to rebrand itself is "will you cater to the comfort levels of me and other men?" And the answer is no. Your rejection of the word feminist is more a reflection of your character than it is the word itself. 

I identify as a democrat. I do this because I believe in the democrat core values.  This does not mean I agree with all democrats at all times. This does not mean that I agree with other democrats on the solutions to problems. It means I have similar fundamental beliefs that I am willing to act upon. There is absolutely no difference between me identifying with the word democrat and the word feminist, except by not identifying as a feminist I have more to lose. 

I will not turn my back on or seek to reclassify a movement that is rooted in decades, if not centuries of history. That without it, I would be relegated to the role of mother and wife without any say for my own desires, deemed property of my husband, with no right to vote. I will not do this for you and your own comfort level. 

There are millions of people, including men, who willingly identify as a feminists and who are committed to being agents of social change. Examples: Terry Crews, Joseph Gordon Levitt (these are men describing why they are feminists, I suggest you watch these) Your choice to not be a feminist and define yourself as such, reflects you... not feminism.

You literally just said that 1 in 7 is a much lower rate than 1 in 5... WHAT?! It is insane to me that you would say 1 in 7 women raped is not an epidemic. If a disease killed one in seven people, the world would be in an uproar. If 1 in 7 people were murdered or robbed or viciously attacked, you would furious. You wouldn't say 1 in 7 is so much better than 1 in 5.

And yes, women are much more likely to be raped by someone they know. Which should be even more concerning to you than a stranger. It means that anyone you trust and allow into your life could take advantage of that trust at dire costs. It also means, a judge and jury (if you are even able to get your case to court, which good fucking luck with that) will be less likely to believe you because they think it will be consensual or that you did something to warrant it. Rape culture, which we do live in, thrives on lack of consent. Rape culture is not just about women being raped, it is about a culture that dehumanizes women and their experiences and empowers men to do what they want. Women aren't scared because of statistics they are scared because of their own personal experiences and the experiences of their friends. We are scared because rape is all over tv shows and movies, shown in a careless, gratuitous way added for shock value. We are scared because people invalidate our experiences.

I have literally been followed for multiple street blocks, I've had men shout disgusting or rude shit at me while I walk down the street, I have had strangers whisper creepy shit in my ear, I have had men stand far too close for comfort, I've had men continue to talk to me on the bus and try to get my number or try to ask me grossly inappropriate or wildly personal questions well after I tried to leave a conversation. I've had a friend try to sexually assault me. And I have MANY friends who have been raped. So that is why I am scared. Not because I read a statistic somewhere. Statistics give power and provide context to the experiences we have. They tell everyone, this isn't HER problem, this is OUR problem. This is happening to a lot of women from a lot of backgrounds. I don't think you really understand what rape culture means, and I'd encourage you to look into it more. Maybe start here. or here. or here.

Yes, patriarchy typically describes men (often times focusing on white men with economic stability) oppressing women, minorities, and the poor because that has been, and continues to be, the reality for centuries. If and when rich white men become part of the group that is predominantly oppressed then that conversation will change. If this makes you uncomfortable than I would suggest helping solve the problem of actual oppression, not griping about how it is described.

One of my favorite quotes is "If you have come here to help me, you are wasting our time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." If you only seek to be part of a movement because of its direct benefits to your life, then that is a reflection of you. I support civil rights (and feminism) because my freedom is intertwined with everyone elses. I do not want privileges if they are at the expense of other people. There are a lot of benefits that I have because I am middle class and white. I am trying to use the status I have and the power that comes with it to change the world around me and extend those privileges to others. It is my responsibility as a citizen of this world.

Also, I did pick up on your joke and responded with my own brand of sarcasm (I think you missed that ;) ).

I don't get mad with these discussions. I used to when I was younger but now I have come to recognize people's prevailing beliefs and where they stem from. To be honest, I have known you for quite a while and none of your thoughts and opinions shock me because they basically align with how you speak and think on a regular basis. These conversations shape/impact the way I view you, they do not shape or impact the way I view myself or feminism. To be clear, I do care about you deeply and view you as a good person, but I do think you have some more conservative values.  [CR commentary: saying these conversations do not impact how I view myself is not true. Our conversations have impacted some of my own views]

MY ADDENDUM (I followed up with a second email to explain a point I missed):

Also, I forgot to address the rape statistic. There have been a few studies at different universities. So technically that is a small pool of men at those universities but I am willing to bet the statistic applies fairly widely (more studies will have to be done and I am sure they will). I think this is the case because a lot of people don't really understand what rape is. They picture a tiny woman being brutally attacked by an oversized male. This is not the case most of the time. And as you pointed out, most women are raped by someone they know (called acquaintance rape). So what is rape is sometimes ambiguous to men because we haven't raised them in a culture of consent. There are a lot of people who don't think it's rape if a man forces himself on his wife/girlfriend, there are a lot of people who think being drunk somehow makes it consensual sex (even though no consent is actually obtained in that case), there are a lot of people who think if a woman does something sexual with a man then she has asked for it. Just because you go down on a man does not mean you have to have sex with them, or vice versa. At any point in a sexual encounter either party should be able to say no, and that should be respected. If it isn't, then that is a form of sexual assault.

Hope that helps clarify.