Explaining feminism in real life, part 3.
Disclaimer: if you've read any of these conversations you'll know I already admit to this, however I will state it more explicitly right now. Feminists do not share a collective brain with which they make decisions about the world around them. Meaning: not all feminists would agree with what I say in these emails. My point of view about feminism comes from my perspective, my experiences, and my privilege. What feminists DO share is the fundamental belief that men and women (and everything in between) should be equal- politically, economically and socially. Also, I am responding in real time to his emails so I occasionally misread what he wrote.
That being said, so the saga continues.
HIS FOLLOW UP
That being said, so the saga continues.
HIS FOLLOW UP
You are right, I was raised on the conservative side and still have
conservative views on some issues. However, over the years I am
somewhat surprised to find my political ideology becoming more liberal.
For example, although I did not vote for Obama last election, I also
did not vote for Romney because he seemed as slimy as politicians come
and I disagreed with him on a lot of things. Just because I don't label
myself as a feminist doesn't mean I disagree with everything feminism
is trying to achieve.
I'm not sure my
reluctance to label myself a feminist reflects more on me than
feminism. Unfortunately it seems the mainstream view of feminism is
still bra burning militant lesbian men hating women. Why is this? It's
not just men that think this. You're probably seen this http://
I haven't watched the videos you linked to yet but I will when I can and my internet connection doesn't suck.
Regarding
the BJS rape statistic. I'm not sure where you got 1 in 7 from. The
BJS statistic is 7.6 per 1000 or 1 in 131 or 0.76% which is much better
than 1 in 5 or 20%. For what it's worth, I tried to figure out what
defines an epidemic. It seems context dependent but a rate of 1 in 131
could still apply.
I did read the other links
you posted. I'm not sure reducing or eliminating rape is as easy as
teaching men to not rape. I think all men know that rape is wrong and
violence against women (or anyone else) is wrong. But there does seem
to be a gray area. Californias yes means yes law I think tries to
eliminate the gray area but it seems problematic. I'm not sure how
other people have sex but I don't usually get verbal confirmation or
receive it from my partners. So I guess that makes both me and my
partners rapists. And when alcohol is involved that makes the issue
even more complicated. So why not teach both men and women to avoid
situations they could later regret?
Your last paragraph is rather confusing. Glad you clarified it later.
MY FOLLOW UP
The Women Against Feminism blog is the dumbest thing I
have ever seen and most people agree with me on that. Those women lack
the basic understanding of what feminism is and they sound like morons.
They also clearly have ZERO understanding of the privilege they now have
thanks to the women rights movement and feminism. I can't really speak
to that beyond what I just said, that whole blog is a joke and those
women are too. The willfully ignorant women who post on 'Women Against Feminism'
With regards to all the articles you are finding, all I can say is what you look for you will find. I am not disagreeing that people have a misperception of feminism. I just don't agree that feminism needs to rename itself to make other people more comfortable. Instead, I believe that the more people come out as feminists and continue to have open dialogue around feminism and equality, the more people will get over it. I see similaries to LGBTQ rights. The more that celebrities have come out as gay, the more accepted equal rights based on gender and sexuality have been. It has changed the conversation from stereotypes and inaccurate information to real conversations about equality and our basic human similarites.
Your
comment "So I guess that makes both me and my partners rapists" is
absurd. I am assuming that was intentional. It's an extremist response
to a reasonable request. Consent does not mean that at every single step
during a sexual encounter, you have to stop and look at a person and
say "do you consent to this?". That would be ridiculous (unless you are
into that, in which case, good on you) and no one is asking for that.
Those statements do a horrible disservice to the conversation about
consent. And to be honest, it is insulting to people who have actually
been raped.
With regards to your comment about alcohol, here is an article summarizing an interesting study (with links to the original). The actual researchers concluded that "Sexual aggression is a major problem in bars often reflecting intentional sexual invasiveness and unwanted persistence rather than misperceptions in sexual advances."
There is also the saying "personality is not an ingredient in Jack Daniels."
I am not a lesbian (sadly) or a man hater, and I've never burned a bra (though I can't rule out the possibility) but I am a feminist. Also, side note because the principle of that statement irks me, lesbians don't hate men, they just aren't sexually attracted to them thanks to genetics. It's interesting to me that somehow those things were ever connected and that being a lesbian is being used as a dig in this context.
"Unfortunately it seems the mainstream view of feminism is still bra burning militant lesbian men hating women." Depends on who you consider mainstream. I have sent you multiple groups, celebrities, individuals who gladly proclaim they are feminists and who challenge every notion you just stated. And I could send you a million more. Even people in your own life gladly identify as feminists. So like I said, the people who choose to villify or stereotype feminists are reflecting their own biases. You choose your perspective, you choose what information you will listen to, and you choose how you identify. Millions of people have zero issue identifying as a feminist and don't feel threatened by the conversation feminism is trying to have (including plenty of mainstream people like JGL, Brad Pitt, Aziz Ansari, Tina Fey, Taylor Swift, Rashida Jones, Tom Hiddleston, Ellen Page, Selma Hayek, Lena Dunham, Amy Poehler, Emma Stone, Emma Watson, John Legend, Claire Danes, Patrick Stewart, Dustin Hoffman, Joss Whedon, etc etc etc etc these are some of the biggest tv, movie, and comedy stars of our day and they are all cool with it)
With regards to all the articles you are finding, all I can say is what you look for you will find. I am not disagreeing that people have a misperception of feminism. I just don't agree that feminism needs to rename itself to make other people more comfortable. Instead, I believe that the more people come out as feminists and continue to have open dialogue around feminism and equality, the more people will get over it. I see similaries to LGBTQ rights. The more that celebrities have come out as gay, the more accepted equal rights based on gender and sexuality have been. It has changed the conversation from stereotypes and inaccurate information to real conversations about equality and our basic human similarites.
Here is another great speech about why we should all be feminists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
Or this video about the impact of popular culture: http://www.upworthy.com/
This is from the CDC:
http://www.cdc.gov/
http://www.cdc.gov/
No one is saying that teaching men to not rape is simple. And more than that, that puts the onus on an individual male rather than the culture that shaped him, which is a horrible disservice and is incredibly shortsighted. Ending rape is an incredibly complex issue that recognizes men and women ALIKE are products of their society. It is about creating a culture where women are respected and empowered and seen as equals, and the concept of manhood and masculinity is flipped on its head rather being some fragile ego. It is teaching people about respect for boundaries and consent. Even the CDC breakdowns the many levels that contribute to becoming a perpetrator of SV: http://www.cdc.gov/
http://www.cdc.gov/
http://www.cdc.gov/
No one is saying that teaching men to not rape is simple. And more than that, that puts the onus on an individual male rather than the culture that shaped him, which is a horrible disservice and is incredibly shortsighted. Ending rape is an incredibly complex issue that recognizes men and women ALIKE are products of their society. It is about creating a culture where women are respected and empowered and seen as equals, and the concept of manhood and masculinity is flipped on its head rather being some fragile ego. It is teaching people about respect for boundaries and consent. Even the CDC breakdowns the many levels that contribute to becoming a perpetrator of SV: http://www.cdc.gov/
With regards to your comment about alcohol, here is an article summarizing an interesting study (with links to the original). The actual researchers concluded that "Sexual aggression is a major problem in bars often reflecting intentional sexual invasiveness and unwanted persistence rather than misperceptions in sexual advances."
There is also the saying "personality is not an ingredient in Jack Daniels."
I am not a lesbian (sadly) or a man hater, and I've never burned a bra (though I can't rule out the possibility) but I am a feminist. Also, side note because the principle of that statement irks me, lesbians don't hate men, they just aren't sexually attracted to them thanks to genetics. It's interesting to me that somehow those things were ever connected and that being a lesbian is being used as a dig in this context.
"Unfortunately it seems the mainstream view of feminism is still bra burning militant lesbian men hating women." Depends on who you consider mainstream. I have sent you multiple groups, celebrities, individuals who gladly proclaim they are feminists and who challenge every notion you just stated. And I could send you a million more. Even people in your own life gladly identify as feminists. So like I said, the people who choose to villify or stereotype feminists are reflecting their own biases. You choose your perspective, you choose what information you will listen to, and you choose how you identify. Millions of people have zero issue identifying as a feminist and don't feel threatened by the conversation feminism is trying to have (including plenty of mainstream people like JGL, Brad Pitt, Aziz Ansari, Tina Fey, Taylor Swift, Rashida Jones, Tom Hiddleston, Ellen Page, Selma Hayek, Lena Dunham, Amy Poehler, Emma Stone, Emma Watson, John Legend, Claire Danes, Patrick Stewart, Dustin Hoffman, Joss Whedon, etc etc etc etc these are some of the biggest tv, movie, and comedy stars of our day and they are all cool with it)
I
will go back to my point about identifying as a Democrat. There are a
lot of people in the world who say A LOT of crazy things about
Democrats, but that doesn't mean Democrats should cater to those
misinformed individuals. Democrats need to stick to their guns and
continue to have open conversations about their world view. Feminism is
no different. The more famous/popular/well-known/etc individuals
continue to come out as feminists, the more the ridiculous stereotypes
around feminism will dissipate.
For the sake of this
conversation, I'd like to suggest this: if you have more questions about
social concepts, lets keep discussing! but if you want to discuss
whether feminism should be called feminism or stereotypes surrounding
feminism, I'd prefer to just agree to disagree and move on. I can find a
million articles that will contradict each article you send me, and I
am sure the same goes for you finding articles that contradict me. We
each have our beliefs and they likely will not change within this
conversation. I never get sick of discussing social issues but I do hit a
wall defending feminism. I've made my case for feminism and so at this
point, we just have a fundamental difference of opinion which is
perfectly ok.
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